Hi fellow IM's,
I am at my wits end and really hoping for some fresh perspectives from you all. We have a 7yo girl and a 6yo boy. Our DD is normally behaved (good days/bad days) but largely does what she's told.
Our 6yo DS has the worst stubborn streak I have ever seen (not too surprising considering some of the genes he's inherited) but we can't get him to do anything; I mean anything. He will not dress himself, he will not clean himself in the bath (if we can get him in the bath), he will not wipe his own bum, he will not clean up after himself, he will not do his homework and most of the time he will not even go to the toilet for number ones (he does them in his pants) and when you tell him to get changed he completely denies having done it and refuses to change.
We have tried rewards charts, pocket money, praise, rewards (matchbox cars), lollies, talking to him, smacking, yelling, taking things off him as a consequence; you name it I think we've tried it. Hopefully we haven't tried it all and you have some ideas. When we ask him to do something the reply we get is 'you don't do anything for me so I'm not doing anything for you'.
The most recent example was yesterday when we went to post office to have passport photos taken for a holiday next year. Our daughter hopped up and had hers taken, he refused. We explained why he needed the photo taken and that he couldn't travel without it, he refused. We said that if he didn't get the photo taken he would have to stay home while we went away, he refused. The lovely lady at the PO asked us if maybe bribery would work. I told him if he had his photo taken we could get a lolly from the supermarket, he refused. He found a book he liked as did his sister so I said 'because DD had her photo taken we're going to get her this book, we could get you that book you like when you have your photo taken', he refused. The PO lady told him he could take her pic and then she'd take his, she took him out the back to show him a passport and how it all worked (which he happily did), but he still refused. Eventually we just had to leave it because there were no other options (and we were holding up the line.
What are we doing wrong? How would you approach him? It's at the stage we're thinking of seeing a psychologist to get a professional opinion. He's wicked smart and has actually said to his grandfather that he doesn't have to clean up because Dad is his slave and will do it for him if he leaves it long enough. He's clearly playing us but we don't know how to fix it without crushing his spirit.
TIA xxx
17 Replies
there could be more going on. it may not be just stubborn have there been any language delays at all?
a psychologist would be a good idea.
Nope he speaks well and he's excelling at school.
still pursue the psychologist there are underlying issues which can hide REALLY well...
I have had my daughter assessed for dyslexia multiple times simply because all my siblings are and they NEVER picked it up, only to be told it doesn't always present with reversed and muddled words.
and that ADHD is often missed particularly if it isn't the hyperactive type which her's is the inattentive type which is harder to detect. so after 10 years of assessments and being lost they think they have finally figured it out. these things often don't match the stereotypes. she does alot of these things. but its all so muddled I can't tell you which is linked to which issue....
Thank you for your advice
It sounds a lot more to me than just being stubborn. Time to get in to see a pediatrician and child psychologist. If you think you are being played, stop being played!
I understand your comment about 'stop being played' but how do we do that when nothing we do works. We cannot force him to anything; he went in to the bath fully clothed the other night because he wouldn't let us remove his clothes. My husband had smacked him and he just laughed, I had tried to reason with him and then yelling when I got frustrated and he fought me when I tried to undress him. We don't know what to do that is going to work.
The thing that springs to mind is people doing things for him (because that is what he himself has identified). Stop picking up after him, stop doing things. But personally I think a psychologist will get to the bottom of it really fast. He probably enjoys getting you guys all worked up and stressed out. A psych can help you work through each behavioural problem. They'll get you to take behaviour data and come up with common denominators.
Thanks for your perspective, you've pretty much reinforced what we're thinking.
we received the same advice from teachers in 2007, it didn't work it just resulted in an even bigger problem because she didn't pick up when people stopped doing those things and then it came back onto us being blamed for her not doing those things.
its a really hard situation and you end up being trapped between a rock and a hard place. Magic 1-2-3 helped a little but it was no solution where there are underlying issues there are underlying issues and while some things help you still need to identify what else is impacting the situation. the earlier detected the better the outcomes.
never be afraid to ask for professional advice and assessment. at worse they eliminate a few things.
my daughter basically needs a fulltime carer just to keep her on track. but for a long time she wasn't even diagnosed and all her issues are "mild" but they create the perfect storm which results in acute combined symptoms.
she doesn't even need anyone Doing everything for her so much as someone with her to highlight what was missed and to keep her in step with routine. so we work on a buddy system. provided she has someone doing the same thing along side her it gives her the non verbal ques to stay on track.
its a good thing she has a sister only a year younger who doesn't have behavioral issues to keep step with, they are in the same grade due to her delays.
That's where I struggle at not doing things for him, he'd end up at school in a pull up and his PJ's. We've tried 1-2-3, it works sometimes but usually when he's feeling more cooperative.
so its episodic?
take notes of these changes in a diary, you will need it.
we have literally had occasion to dump them at school without shoes and in pajama's with the knowledge and support of the school. and taken our own sweet time bringing the rest up to them for the sake of a lesson learned.
Refusing to go to the toilet or refusing to change his pants when wet is pretty much every day (we are seeing someone at the incontinence clinic, there's no physical problem and their solution was a rewards chart which he doesn't give a toss about). He's stubborn about most things but there's definitely days he digs his heels in more than others. His initial answer is nearly always no. Keeping a diary is a great idea!!!
yeah she didn't have any of those issues either, she just doesn't bother going, due to trauma poor hygiene and wetting became (it wasn't to start with) a protective behaviour to keep people at a distance.
you could be looking at a less obvious type of adhd or even like her a cluster of issues
keep notes also on what else is happening at the time or just prior, it will help identify if there are triggers to the behaviour
As a nurse in primary health care with 15 years experience working with kids, and a mum of two kids (aged 8 & 6) with high functioning ASD, I would definitely recommend a psychologist. Ask around and find someone who can also undertake any necessary assessments& develop cognitive behavioural plans. We have found a great psychologist who has a good rapport with our son. Be prepared to answer some tough questions and also to critically reflect on the "how, what & why" regarding your current strategies to manage. We found making little changes, but being consistent, made a big difference.
Another thought, that you probably already have sorted, is for yourself and your husband to meet with key staff at school & ask specific questions about behaviours there. If they don't see any real issues & all the oppositional behaviours are happening at home, this will give you good info to reflect on with the psychologist.
I've learned from past mistakes to really try to be consistent - even if a strategy doesn't seem to be working, if you can see it could have value, stick with it. Chopping and changing can potentially give our kids the message that we are not confident & kids can smell fear! Make sure where possible your partner is on board and supportive - good luck & hang in here :-)
It can do. It can also mean they are just bottling it up while they are at school and unloading once home.
My youngest has done this all her life. The school/preschool/creche has only ever seen the tip of the ice berg.
They noticed the pressured speech
They didn't even cotton on that she was manic. I even had one staff member tell me she had asked her how she was doing that morning and thought she was fine because she felt GREAT after I told them to keep a close eye out that day. They had 0 comprehension of what mania is.
And I still doubt they really understand. Although one teacher now has seen her on a really bad day. She was so volatile after she missed the bus for the excursion she basically spent the day wandering between home and school. One teacher saw her outside the school and noticed the emotional state she was in pretty quickly and even she realised it wasnt a day to make a thing of it.
The other they picked up on the literacy and speech issues. Even being a school where those issues are handled regularly they didn't pick up on the dyslexia or adhd due to the types that they are.
Hi IM,
I'm sorry to hear you are having such a difficult time. I have a 12 year old with asd (was aspergers under old diagnostic scheme). We've been told he has ODD and conduct disorder. He is currently being investigated for bipolar. Autism and bipolar have a strong genetic history in my family.
I get what you're saying. My son was very similar at that age. It was so difficult. I remember around that time I found out about pathological demand avoidance syndrome (PDA). It's only really 'popular' in the UK. It fitted my son to a T and is believed to be a part of the autism spectrum. Have a read about it anyway, there may be some parenting strategies on a well used forum that help.
The continence issue sounds like a choice from the way you describe it. Mine did that at 10years. Regression and difficulty toilet training is common in the autism spectrum. Something else to consider.
A label won't be a cure but it can do a number of wonderful things if there is something there. It can open up funding and therapy options. Both home therapy and with a psychologist, OT and behavioral therapist. It can result in knowing what therapy will work and what things are most helpful to try. It doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Now when it comes to practical help right now, I'm hearing that he just does not want to comply with 'demands' that are made of him. So I have some hopefully helpful suggestions.
1. Give him as much notice and warning of demands. If you have to have a passport photo taken for example, then tell him days before. Possibly use a social story (find them free on the net) to explain what will happen. Practice taking photos at home. Mention it every day in the lead up and ask what he would like to do afterwards.
2. Have floor time with him. Does he like Lego? What does he play with? Sit down and just be with him. Pass him Lego blocks. Don't lead the play, let him lead. Let him decide what you will do and let him make the rules of play. This will hopefully do a few things. It should give you quality time, give him a sense of control over somehthing which it seems he craves and allow you to build some really positive flow between the two of you.
3. Give him choices. A choice may be would you like to bath before or after dinner. Would you like to get changed now or in 5 minutes? Would you like a bubble bath or a colouring bath (special tablets from woolworths that colour your bath water). If there are possibly sensory issues with clothing, does he want to wear a soft tshirt underneath? Would he like to help make dinner after his bath? By giving him a choice it may make him feel in control.
4. Write up a visual routine for him. Put pictures of the people and things in it on there. Let him help you make it. Again giving him control when really, you are still in control.
5. Find out how currency. All kids have one. Is it food or toys? What really gets him interested? Try instead of a star chart a rewards chip system. Something as simple as poker chips. Perhaps before his bath if that is a difficult time, take time to give him the chips he's earned. It may be here is a chip for getting dressed this morning. Here is a chip for changing your wet clothes earlier within 5 minutes. If you can't find obvious things to reward then be obscure. Ask him what he would like to earn. Lunch orders, special trip to the park, new games etc. then he can cash them in. Keep the rewards list in an obvious place. Always reinforce the behaviours you want to see more of.
Anyway I hope this helps. These are things we have done with our child. It's a tough road when they are just so defiant.
PS Try not to let him see he is getting to you. Impossible I know but it won't help.
Thanks for your advice Mumma. We have bipolar on my side of the family and aspergers on my husbands so we're not ruling them out entirely. Still deciding which way we're going to jump at the moment but we've been given some awesome suggestions. Thanks for your help <3